20 frames of landing lag from a directional airdodge, on top of being forced to be in the air for a certain amount of time...how is that going to be useful? Nice job being condescending when you're completly wrong lmao. And this doesn't even take into account how much better wavedash back would be for whiff punishing. I've played every Smash since Melee for about a year each in tourny before I ended up quitting and just going into spectator mode. Top 100 » 200 » 300 » 400 » 500 On the plus side, I would think you can cancel dash with jump at any time, while there are parts of the dash before the run when you can't input a new dash, so you could at least wavedash at those times. [–]Fox (Melee)SSBM_DangGan 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (11 children), Not a single one of those things are glitches, let alone game breaking. [–]MarthQGuy_Brian -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (3 children). 858k members in the smashbros community. Sheild drop was increased noticeably from ssb4 from what I've heard, so I doubt it. That's a fair point with regards to rolling but since rolls stale it could be used as a method of keeping your roll fresh in exchange for staling your airdodge? Summary. [–]Yoshidarksora2323 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (5 children). You can't "dash cancel" in ultimate either, you can only do the action out of run. Super Smash Bros. But here (apparently, obviously I haven't played the game) you can cancel the turnaround with any move. To put it in perspective, Melee wavedash landing lag had 10 frames of lag, Ultimate wavedash landing lag seems to have about 15. [–]silian 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (1 child). I coach Super Smash Bros Ultimate to help players get to Elite Smash. But wavedash's main use isn't whiff punishing. That's only ~5 frames slower than a Melee WD. So doing this vs. earlier aerials will be easy, and vs. fastfall aerials it could still be a viable option, given it isn't a low lag move like a nair or something. [–]ArkhaosZero 12 points13 points14 points 2 years ago (2 children). [–]Jeangirrrarrrd 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (1 child). Ultimate is a fighting game for the Nintendo Switch released worldwide on December 7, 2018. Short hop timing in ultimate is more strict than in sm4sh just so ya know. That's not fast enough to punish whiffs reliably, it's not fast enough to extent combos, it's not fast enough to wavedash oos and tilt to punish attacks, so what will be its optimal use? Your waveland after a spotdodge or a roll won't be as effective. [–]ClarkEbarZ 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (3 children). When you have a few hours to practice to win a tournament, you're not going to sit there and grind tech that may or may not even be in the game. The wavedashing scenario presented is not optimal, let alone feasible. Disclaimer: Information found on this website is believed to be accurate. Thats what i care about most, [–]Falco (Ultimate)MadSpaceYT 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (1 child), There is dash dancing. https://gyazo.com/43f3342713a36c5e663925fa2888bf54, As shown in the clips above, wavedashing is clearly possible. Now there are better KINDS of paper available. You have whatever shield stun the attack hit you did, 3 frames of jump squat, at least 2 frames of being in the air, and 20 frames of landing lag. [–]Pikachu (Ultimate)OG_Wan_Annunoby 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (1 child). [–]Imsular 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children). Top Players: All - Offline/LAN - Online. Wave-dashing is legit the easiest thing in the world. Not one that drives them all away because they have to virtually relearn the game to keep up. Summary. The harder stuff develops on top of the easier stuff over time as each layer becomes "natural" to players through practice/grind. Especially since you can dash dance now. [–]Fox (Melee)Im_French 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (0 children). 10 frames is more than enough visual stimulus for someone to try and press a button (and subsequently get whiff-punished by the wavedash mixup), especially in a high-stakes neutral situation. Works on FD too. Because there is less need to rely on those movement options to get things done. Then you're beyond naive. [–]carsFunkyLobster 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children). Perfect wavedash has 15 frames or so, [–]PokemonLogoArmenaut[S] 34 points35 points36 points 2 years ago* (0 children). There's also the diminishing returns of rolling i-frames. Ultimate's dashdancing apparently has some restrictions on length and a slower turnaround animation, so depending on how that dashdance turn state functions, it might still lack the precise spacing of Melee, which is one of the most important parts of its design to me. 3. I don't really understand why people are against wave dashing. I've done frame data testing, frame by painful frame. It might be used to bait and whiff punish if they throw out a super laggy smash attack, but other than that, OoS will likely be one of the only scenarios where it's consistently utilized. THANK YOU! Don't tell me you've never seen someone in Smash 4 run up to bait an option, roll back, and then punish with a dash attack or dash grab? !, REMEMBER THAT ONE TECH? This wasn't directed at you specifically, just as this idea that everyone has been using to argument why we don't need wavedashes, when wavedashes were never really used for that anyway and we can do a slightly different version of ultimate's mechanic anyway. Prize Money Awarded: $1,404,168.19 From 1280 Tournaments. At best, it's 18 frames. Note: The rocket item holds no influence). But it's not twice as slow as Melee, and that really hurts the point you're trying to make. This is actually one of my main problems. [–]YoshiMikeManGuy 9 points10 points11 points 2 years ago (0 children). The only way we'll ever see people using anything even remotely similar to a wavedash is wavelanding on to platforms in very specific situations. It requires 3 inputs on 3 consecutive frames which obviously makes it very hard. [–]Game & WatchGIMR 33 points34 points35 points 2 years ago (2 children). [–]Pikachu (Ultimate)OG_Wan_Annunoby 12 points13 points14 points 2 years ago* (8 children). It's like an auto-turn around, Depending on the angle as you mentioned, you can mix-up your wave land distance, As you mentioned, wave land can be faster than full hop on some characters. [–]Fox (Melee)SSBM_DangGan 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (9 children). IIRC Ultimate's shield drop is like Brawl and Smash 4 (7 frames), so it's not necessary to have the wavedash option. [–]MushroomKingdomLogoGhostofthefuture1mil 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child). The biggest functional applications for wavedashing in melee is wavelanding onto and off of platforms (including ledge dashing) wavedash turnaround for ledge grabs, (which we no longer need since you just auto grab ledge in the new games) and wavedash out of sheild. Oh I assumed all dodges share staling but I have no proof of this haha. Probably Halberd, which I enjoyed playing a bunch until the coalition of no-fun banned it. [–]Fox (Melee)SSBM_DangGan 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (1 child). 20 lb, 92 lb, 100lb, etc. Welcome to Reddit's finest Smash Bros community! unseat melee as the best competitive smash game. It's still good OoS because you can continue to face your opponent, making it easier to shield grab if you continue shielding (as stated in the top post). Learn more about Super Smash Bros. Browse Events. [–]chakramPokecheese 227 points228 points229 points 2 years ago* (17 children). Hi all, I just wanted to clear up a very clear misconception that seems to be floating around about wavedashing in Ultimate. Considering the type of jump had no bearing on the success of the technique in the only game with the technique? So like before, you have 14 frames of lag before you can begin your dash away from the opponent. [–]Falconquestionable_plays 59 points60 points61 points 2 years ago (3 children). Dissecting Super Smash Brothers Ultimate: Part 1 – Mechanics. So you'd have to wait till frame 15 to even BEGIN dashing away from the opponent, compared to a wavedash back, which would probably start moving you away on Frame 6-7. Yes it is, the shorthop window in Sm4sh is huge, it's not like it's hard to hit. Thanks for pointing it out. [–]YoshiMikeManGuy 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (0 children). The amount of misinformation and misunderstanding of wavedashing in the comments is exactly what I expected from r/smashbros. Wavelanding and wavedashing use air dodge, which stales. I mean you could run up shield to bait a grab, wavedash back to make them whiff, then dash back in or tipper fsmash for a punish. The control stick is just hard on your joints, and you use the control stuck constantly and quickly. I can't speak much on roll frame data in Ultimate, but assuming an average FAF of 30 (which it was in S4), + more because of the roll staling, wavedash back OOS would be faster than rolling. [–]tornado -> hero spinBottlecapn 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (1 child). Some of the chars I play a bunch. [–]onederful 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (1 child), I think you failed to mention an important part of the video. Even casually playing Melee I was able to perform wavedashes consistently. A Magnet Pull is basically a longer version of Lucas' Wavelanding technique. [–]play Melty Blood insteadKuro_Kagami 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (3 children). (or banana, needles, etc.) Wavedashing didn’t originate in Super Smash Bros. Melee; it started out in Tekken, with certain characters able to pull off a crouch-dash forward that could lead to more combos and pressure.Because characters in Melee crouch and slide when wavedashing, the term was a natural fit for Melee.. Super Smash Bros. It would have to be quicker, otherwise....why is anyone using it? It's different since you can act while you slide, but you can't act while you roll. [–]VirgateSpy 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children), [–]Kered13 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children). Looks like you're using new Reddit on an old browser. In Brawl , since Jigglypuff's and Mr. Game & Watch's air dodge animations carry over from Melee , pausing just before the animation ends allows the player to see their helpless state. It's easy to learn, fun to do, and opens up a lot of options. ever, [–]Wendy is my waifuYze3 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children). Not an absolute necessity like in Melee but still something that can give you an edge in certain situations. Moving the control stick left and right while pressing the r trigger is not destroying your hands. Rendered by PID 27897 on r2-app-0dc70e46e7ff13865 at 2021-03-02 09:10:19.046888+00:00 running 80a3c63 country code: US. I think you’re right...but wouldn’t it be funny if this post ended up being the new “Chillin says Wavedashing is useless” rant from Smashboards years ago? Hope to see you all schmoovin soon! [–]MarthQGuy_Brian 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children). It's the same thing but you get invincibility. Not only is it ridiculous to assume that the only method of wavedashing that was attempted was a literal melee wavedash, half the players there aren't melee players with no muscle memory to worry about. [–]NeedHelpWithExcel -5 points-4 points-3 points 2 years ago (7 children). Everyone wants to learn the fundamentals. I love Melee. So it doesn't have 100% more lag, it has 33% more lag.... so its disingenuous to base your analysis off of a flawed comparison of frame data. ), and waveland with shield button on zair character, Waveland off of ledge (onto stage) is actually a legit mix-up that Dabuz does. [–]Cobalionrider 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children). There was a good bit of discussion regarding the waveland, which these players did discover, so it makes no sense for them to discuss only the waveland and not the wavedash if they knew wavedashing was possible. While we didn’t learn anything about a story mode, online functionality or custom stages, we learned a plethora about the actual characters and new mechanics in the game. https://gyazo.com/202e6021269f18201f95b734e01bc1b3 [+]NeedHelpWithExcel comment score below threshold-15 points-14 points-13 points 2 years ago (11 children). It is the fifth installment in the Super Smash Bros. series (sixth if Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U are counted as separate).. All previous playable Super Smash Bros. characters return in this installment, alongside numerous newcomers. Wavelanding looks like it could get mileage, but not wavedashing the way we've seen. I'm very sure there are better ways to reposition yourself to punish slow things. © 2021 reddit inc. All rights reserved. tech is in place that can cover most the offensive benefits of wavedash on the ground. You must cheat this high to play. (though i wouldn't mind it ofcourse), [–]ChriisTofu 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children). You can't speak for anyone, or what anyone would "always" do. [–]blipAltimor 14 points15 points16 points 2 years ago (0 children). I've actually done lagless getup into tipper forward smash with Marth. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. In Smash 4 and Ultimate, Pac-Jump's red trampoline can put any character in a helpless state, and so all characters, including R.O.B., have one in these games. There's one thing the comments nor you have mentioned yet. Perhaps we can get the wavedash lite with ULT and see what competitive nature that breeds. Shameless plug I know, but I want your thoughts on that article lol. Releasing shield takes 11 frames in Ultimate, and along with that, turning around into a dash now takes like 3 frames, as far as I can tell (Gimr has referred to this as a new "backdash" animation). Release Date: 2018. 2 of them being Melee Fox mains? A wall tech (or PassiveWall) is a tech against a wall. [–]chakramPokecheese 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (4 children). Over the course of E3, we were overloaded with new information on the next Smash Bros game. [–]enyoron 27 points28 points29 points 2 years ago (14 children). Don't worry /r/SSBM didn't forget. EXACTLY! It adds a level of fluidity and options. And obvi I know you don't have to dtilt, I said you could do whatever you want didn't I XD? It seems to be against the prevailing design philosophy to make a movement harder than it was in a previous iteration. Edit: This is under the assumption that there is more landing lag when defensive options are staled. Hopefully daddy Sakurai will lower the amount of lag from landing. [–]lmntolp 14 points15 points16 points 2 years ago (5 children). But I'm still holding out hopes it'll be useful in the long run. Even if landing lag was 15 frames, the numbers don't add up favorably. However keep in mind that using a wavedash will add a counter to the stale defensive option queue, so your next roll for example will be laggier. Hungrybox - Melee player and content creator for Team Liquid, Big Blue Esports - Organisers of the Shine tournament series*, Beyond The Summit - Organisers of Smash Summit, KishPrime & KishSquared - TOs & crew battle originators, David Vincent - Voice Actor of Richter and Robin, Alpharad - Smash Content Creator and Panda Global Partner, Zhu - Retired Melee Falco and content creator. There might not be, which is even better, so this is a worst case scenario type of thing. Jumping out of shield cancels it instantly in every game, and it takes 3 frames to leave the ground in Smash Ultimate. "Useless" was exactly how people described perfect pivot when it was first popularized too. I have no idea if the video is even running at 60fps. Your logic is sound, so I'm not arguing against it at this point because it's pretty likely that you're right. Ultimate. I also frame by framed the clips to get data from it, but I'm interested to see what you find. And idk why you're only assuming that a wavedash back has to be done AFTER an attack hits your shield. Finally someone explained how to do it! So far, not being able to spam defensive options like air dodge anymore is a great sign for the kind of tech-chase combo-based gameplay I'm looking forward to, I just hope that the current movement options are enough to enable that. Adds more depth to the game having those two options, really. And it turns a lot of people off. Isn't do something out of run turnaround just crouch -> stand up and do the move the other way? In terms of playing I actually agree that Project M felt the best for me and in terms of spectating I only really watch Melee anymore. Release Date: 2018. [–]MushroomKingdomLogoGhostofthefuture1mil 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children), [–]miniyodadude 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children), Lol, you press jump too fast to fullhop in wavedash, [–]Lucario, Meta Knight, InklingPureey 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children), [–]sirwexter 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children), i feel like there is no reason to ever wave dash. It's not an intended mechanic but that doesn't make it a glitch, lol. They have a good eye, but the territory that they're making predictions in is *so* incredibly difficult to predict, that you should take even their word with a grain of salt. After sifting through countless vods, these appear to be the best demonstrations of wavedashing in Ultimate so far (Thanks to NAKAT and Aposl for actually pulling it off. You're clearly much MUCH better off dropping shield and dashing away considering how fast drop shield is in 4/ultimate and how laggy wavelands are. [–]chakramPokecheese 12 points13 points14 points 2 years ago (1 child), Honestly you may be correct, I don't have any proof they don't share staling lol, [–]Sonic (Ultimate)Nintendurcules 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children). Wavedash has a lot of defensive or setup utility that is not going to replaced by the new dash mechanics at all. https://gyazo.com/d264bfe6de6452f912a4c5c519c529a0 I know and I expect it to be but it still tilts me to oblivion to see this misinformation spread and be accepted as facts, 90% of this sub giving their opinion on melee's gameplay and ultimate's similarities when they're just parroting each other without knowing anything about how the game works smh. It might be an oversight. We speak with him about how his Project NX mod is … so wavedash back OOS might not be completely useless? I like Melee because it allows for freedom in gameplay, not because it is "hard". Things like tier placements and meta predictions are almost entirely useless, because a lot of what determines what's good is based on small dominant factors. Welcome to Reddit's finest Smash Bros community! [–]PotatoLunar 39 points40 points41 points 2 years ago (2 children). Not to mention most people even with Melee muscle memory still wavedash with a shorthop input anyways, not like the window is small in Sm4sh/Ultimate. It's crude as fuck but it still works at every level of play. I just want to be able to slip and slide while throwing out down smashes with Luigi. Ultimate better. What does Waveland from ledge do that normal get up doesn’t do? [–]Elkram 11 points12 points13 points 2 years ago (16 children). Retreating to naked lag doesn't threaten anything. Yeah, lol. Gaming icons clash in the ultimate showdown you can play anytime, anywhere, with anyone: Super Smash Bros. And I love watching competitive Melee. Well who knows, maybe the new dash mechanics will end up "feeling" good. No flak from me. IMO that's a good place for wavedash/landing to be. There are loads of situations where this could be useful oos, especially considering how it's ~10 frames less committal than a roll. You really think that 8 players with 8 hours in this game never once tried to wavedash with a shorthop? They've only played for several hours, when a ton of this tech requires a LONG time to experiment with. [–]Sheik (Ultimate)LoLVergil 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (2 children). Some games offer more depth in places that Melee lacks, but a lot of melee players (at least the vocal 'elitests') refuse to acknowledge that because they are slower, have less tech skill etc. Super Smash Bros. Can't speak for other stages because I never paid much attention to stages. Do Hbox or Armada have "destroyed hands"? It's kinda tricky to get a true grasp on when they're free to act, since the ideal way to test this would be to shield right after the wavedash (which no one did). I really wish Nintendo re-introduced all the advanced tech in the new game along with crouch walking. This is the best clip that I've found to show this: Ike directional airdodges directly into shield here. Where can I learn more? In Ultimate, since full hopping rockets you upwards now, you are forced to short hop for the wavedash. I want a game where I can play with my friends and have local rivalries. [–]NPPraxis 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (0 children). Thank you! Edit: I also never said it wasn't viable, just that some new (improved? Recorded Date Range: 2018-12-07 to 2021-02-24. [–]IncineroarjQuaade 119 points120 points121 points 2 years ago (19 children). You could read an incoming aerial against shield, and then start wavedashing back right before your opponent even starts their aerial (but still late enough that they don't have time to react to the start of your wavedash and call an audible). But just because it's not an amazing oos option like we see on Melee, that doesn't mean it couldn't still end up being a solid oos option for Ultimate. I don't see this having any practical use oos if the lag stays as huge on it. Couple this information with the new run/dash mechanic and let your movement imagination run wild! Smash ultimate has apparently 11 frames though. Nobody knew about short hop wavedashing until very recently, which went undocumented for so long because nobody had thought to try it. I'm a TV reviewer by trade, and have noticed the severe prevalence of CRT-style TVs at Smash events and tournies. Now we can do some math to see how "drop shield > dash away" compares to wavedashing backwards, since this is the closest thing to an equivalent action. You're wrong about it being a 20 frame commitment. I like to play games that aren't broken. One of the greatest aspects about wavedash back would be how quickly you can weave out, and then right back in. I would prefer the normal airdodge got removed, and have directional airdodging be as show where it doesn't put you in freefall afterwards. People thinking wave dashing in ultimate is bad is not a misconception, our best sources have confirmed this. Think before you speak in this sub we're mostly Smash 4 tech skill masters here, [–]koranot 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children), [–]koranot 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child), ''SEE IT'S JUST LIKE MELEE THE COMPETITIVE ONE YEAH! As well as talking about the current Smash environment in regards to Hungrybox. [–]Roosterton 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (2 children). To put it in perspective, Melee wavedash landing lag had 10 frames of lag, Ultimate wavedash landing lag seems to have about 15. He was referring to the sloppy triangle jump, not the wavedash we saw in the OP. It looks to be 17/16 to me assuming they moved as soon as possible (which they probably did). [–]Marche800 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child). Smash 4 rolls are a ~30f commitment, this looks like a ~20f commitment (3 frame jumpsquat + couple frames in the air + 15 frames of endlag). Maybe playing the fucking game they’d never touched before? Tricking the opponent with the initial jump animation lmao, literally nobody is gonna react to 3 frames of jumpsquat and go "oh they're gonna jump with an attack" and then be surprised when you airdoge backwards instead, they're gonna look at your character doing something out of shield and by the time they're reacting to your animation you're already either attacking or moving backwards with the waveland (or rolling/spotdodging/upb you get the point), you're never gonna trick anybody with that because humans litteraly can't react to visual stimuli that fast. Yes, the lag is higher than Melee, which does reduce its utility, but it definitely has quite a few uses and I believe it will be a viable movement option upon the game's release. [–]MarthQGuy_Brian 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (7 children). Top 100 » 200 » 300 » 400 » 500 Your scenario implies the move hits your shield on the exact frame before they land, which will not be the case most of the time. Because to most people the wavedashing is worthless and pointless, even with this "discovery", It has "no wavedashing" because you'll never see it used, [–]chakramPokecheese 9 points10 points11 points 2 years ago (2 children).
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